A chat with a friend
This is from a chat with a friend on Saturday 10 May 2014. Edited for anonymity, and the edits are not usually marked. Some sections added to make it easier to skim.
Where am I?
Friend: hey hunter, anyone home? @ 1:23 PM
Hunter Hogan: home. such an innocent word @ 1:30 PM
Friend: there is that
you’re in cairo these days? @ 1:31 PM
Hunter Hogan: i am in Cairo right now. 8 months. either arrive 10-10-2013 or left USA on 10-10. can’t remember @ 1:32 PM
Friend: quite the change of scenery from illinois
i was in central illinois for about three years @ 1:33 PM
Hunter Hogan: yes. Illinois to Texas for some time, then to California dessert for some time. Then here. @ 1:33 PM
Why am I freaking out?
Friend: what’s going on with you today? @ 1:34 PM
Hunter Hogan: I live in champaign after I was kicked out of TAMS. I also lived there for some parts of four summers prior to TAMS. my brother went to Parkland and UofI
idk how to answer that question
sry @ 1:35 PM
Friend: i skimmed over your last few entries at hunterthinks, and i know a little bit about your legal mess
saw those entries awhile back @ 1:35 PM
Hunter Hogan: the legal mess, combined with other issues, has produced major mental illness. I wish I were only dealing with a legal mess and that I did not have mental illness @ 1:36 PM
What am I acting like a jerk?
Friend: nod, you do sound pretty rough and more than a little out of touch with how to interact with people
sounds like you’ve had a rough go of it for the past some years @ 1:38 PM
Hunter Hogan: many years. @ 1:39 PM
Friend: i do remember you as a pretty personable guy, and of course you’ve got to be mensa range to get into TAMS to begin with @ 1:39 PM
Hunter Hogan: I don’t think there is a proper way for a person with my mental problems to interact with other people. PTSD is not well understood, add depression and GAD, and there isn’t a “right” way @ 1:39 PM
Friend: i know beneath it all you’re still that guy @ 1:39 PM
Hunter Hogan: thank you
I am better than the person at TAMS
I used to be an angry person that believed violence and anger were useful tools @ 1:40 PM
Friend: hah
that’s part of being 16 @ 1:41 PM
Hunter Hogan: I shed those beliefs, but I hurt many people before I shed them @ 1:41 PM
Friend: i used to think i was getting more enlightened
then i took some testosterone boosting supplements
nope @ 1:41 PM
Hunter Hogan: not all people shed them. I worked hard to change those beliefs. @ 1:41 PM
Friend: all my enlightenment is less raging teenage hormones @ 1:41 PM
Hunter Hogan: I was 20 y.o. when those things changed.
btw, on paper, I am 145, so well above mensa @ 1:42 PM
Friend: i did [very high] on the s-b myself
i wish i was as smart as i was back then @ 1:42 PM
Hunter Hogan: I’m not surprised
me, too. my raw horsepower is less
but my wisdom is greater
the IQ numbers only measure megaflops, if you will. how one uses them is more important @ 1:43 PM
Healing from PTSD
Friend: i don’t claim to understand what you’re going through, but i’ve been around quite a bit of ptsd, and i had a few years in the wilderness myself @ 1:44 PM
Hunter Hogan: I am not as fast as most geniuses, but I have creativity, divergent thinking, lateral thinking, and many other skills. I don’t know where they came from. I noticed I had them. I purposely developed them. But I did not earn them, just like I did not earn my IQ. @ 1:45 PM
Friend: 5 year period in there where i mostly just existed, read
i even signed up for junk mail so i’d have some interaction with the outside world @ 1:45 PM
Hunter Hogan: that sounds brutal @ 1:46 PM
Friend: it really wasn’t that terrible, i was just very internet addicted, and let the rest of my life fall apart @ 1:46 PM
Hunter Hogan: the isolation–the disconnect from people–the loneliness: they cut very deeply @ 1:46 PM
Friend: eventually one fine day, a girl decided to start chatting me up, and i kind of found my way back to my self
i was tremendously embarassed about how i let myself sink so low
but she wasn’t aware of any of that
and i didn’t want to let her down
we never dated or anything like that
but she accepted me
and after i long string of failure, i got kind of pissed at myself, because dammit, i was better than that
took me 10 years to graduate college finally @ 1:49 PM
Hunter Hogan: yes. I 100% understand. I could prove/explain, if you would like, but maybe you will take my word on faith.
College is… well, I don’t feel that I failed because I didn’t get my B.S. until 2008. I still learned. I still contributed. The paper has value, but it is not a measurement of your value. @ 1:51 PM
Hunter Hogan: And I don’t think less/more of you because you have a degree. Your motivations could change my opinion of you. Your self-awareness and dedication tell me more than the paper. @ 1:52 PM
Friend: but yah, it’s a common story with TAMSters I’ve found @ 1:52 PM
Hunter Hogan: You failed classes–maybe. That is not failure–necessarily. @ 1:52 PM
Friend: and when I encounter them
I relate them, since I’m one of the moldy oldies now
the raw talent is still there
the capabilities are still there
you can still start over and turn it around @ 1:53 PM
Hunter Hogan: Yes, TAMSters are many who have horsepower AND creativity. The will-to-conform is subverted by that combination.
Yes. I have much to give. I desperately want to give. Frankly, though, I cannot survive like this for long. @ 1:54 PM
Friend: along with that gal, there was one other lady who really kicked my ass
she told me i couldn’t turn it around
and by god, that pissed me off @ 1:55 PM
Hunter Hogan: ah. yes. anger is inherently a good thing. all emotions are. misapplication is the bad thing.
I’m glad you were able to use your anger for your benefit @ 1:57 PM
Who might be able to help me?
Friend: as for you, i know all that raw talent and creativity is still there
the new people you meet today don’t know you from Adam.
and maybe you’ve gotten so used to fucking things up, that you have to expect to fuckup more
when i was pulling myself out of it, sometimes i’d take one step forward and three steps back
but as long as the trendline is upwards
you can get back to yourself @ 2:00 PM
Hunter Hogan: I am lucky that many people here know I want to do good and that I have potential. But this is a poor country devastated by revolutions and a destroyed economy because the tourism is gone. They don’t have the money to help me. But I meet much kindness and desire. They also lack the skill to deal with my deteriorated state. I went to the best psych hospital in the country, and the doctor was frank with me: he lacked skill and medicine.
ppl r here. brb or bbl? @ 2:03 PM
Friend: sure thing
the takeaway is, i know you’re capable of coming back
will you kick yourself in the ass enough to make it happen?
b/c you _are_ better than this @ 2:05 PM
Hunter Hogan: you told me that for you, “kick in the ass” was necessary. I believe you. I believe that it is necessary for the majority of people.
It is not necessary for me. Furthermore, it is damaging for me. @ 2:09 PM
Friend: could be, i do think you need some outside perspective on how your interaction with others is making things worse for you
sometimes when we’re hurt and raw, we don’t realize how outrageous our behavior can be
it’s a slight detour into schizophernia, and genius class intellects frequently have half a foot in that door to begin with @ 2:12 PM
Hunter Hogan: outside perspective: yes. Although I am aware of how my interactions are destroying my relationships. I even know why.
If I explain my actions for the last five years, then many people will understand. it won’t erase the damage, but it will repair many things. it will also prevent future damage in similar situations
but five years is a long time to explain. and it is complex: law, psychology, and more
as for schizophrenia, specifically, I luckily have not had any breaks with reality. @ 2:16 PM
Friend: that’s a very subjective thing
i mean, i’ve been checking in on your blog for probably 15’ish years
you’re pretty far down a rabbit hole right now
and i’m not talking about life situation @ 2:19 PM
Hunter Hogan: yes, I am.
depression is strongly correlated with a realistic view of the world. @ 2:19 PM
Friend: i’m not even talking about depression really @ 2:21 PM
Hunter Hogan: ironically, if I did not have such a clear-eyed view I would have less depression.
the data shows that depression and schizophrenia (in the clinical sense, maybe you are using the word colloquially) are rarely found together. the hypothesis is that they are practically mutually exclusive @ 2:21 PM
Justification versus explanation
Friend: i was reading the comments section of your missing friend
and you keep on digging yourself into a whole by trying to justify yourself
and i’m thinking dude……. @ 2:22 PM
Hunter Hogan: not justify. explain. I rarely use the word justify anymore–for multiple reasons, probably not relevant right now. my motivations for my actions were opaque to nearly everyone. in all cases where I have made my motivations transparent, people have been more accepting. I’m not claiming that I acted rightly–that would be “justification.” I’m merely giving more information to show that I acted with deliberation and from a place of kindness, even when my actions were wrong
need to reboot @ 2:26 PM
Friend: did that line you just fed me really work on juries?
b/c my observation of most people is as soon as your move beyond three syllables and sound bites you’ve lost em completely
and that particular crowd was already hostile in the first instance
people’s predispositions have a lot to do with what’s appropriate interaction, ne?
someone loves you, you can pour soup in their lap, they’ll laugh it off
if they’re already pissed, you blink at them wrong, and you’ve started ww iii @ 2:31 PM
Friend: if you are going for brutal truth and oversharing as a default, i hope that works for you
but stuff like your discovery files, man, the world doesn’t need to know that, leave the drama and the healing to the people who already like you i say @ 2:34 PM
Hunter Hogan: back. @ 2:42 PM
:( I… don’t know what your point is. @ 2:49 PM
Friend: hmm, if i had to articulate it, i’d say, when it comes to blogging
treat the world as a jury
what is it you want to show them when weighing your soul against the proverbial feather
you’ve personally experienced how social media can be used against you in proceedings @ 2:52 PM
Hunter Hogan: Um, so I can better understand “treat the world as a jury”, what is your experience with juries? It will help me understand what you think a jury is or does. @ 2:52 PM
Friend: i’m an attorney too buddy @ 2:53 PM
Hunter Hogan: That helps. Excellent.
That’s why I asked.
And I’m not an attorney.
Seriously, so I can understand what you mean: I don’t have experience with civil juries. And my jury experience is only in a small town where the people on the jury always had outside knowledge of the various people involved, so my understanding of the large category of “juries” is non-existent. I only understand a very narrow type of jury, and only as a prosecutor. @ 2:56 PM
Friend: Whatever you write in your blogs, assume it has the potential to be there forever, yes?
It has evidence
It can be spun around every which way
And the person weighing that evidence is only going to look in with laserlike focus on what concerns them
Potential employers, potential lovers, all the rest of it @ 2:59 PM
Hunter Hogan: oh, yes. I agree. I learned that from two sources. First, I had my first internet job in 1996, and I had tons of run-ins with MtG and the internet in 1995, 1996, and 1998. Second, in psychology, they call it in confirmation bias. @ 2:59 PM
Friend: And they will take all of it out of context
If someone is trying to build a case for or against you, what evidence do you want them to see?
Me for example.
Okay, you put your discovery files out there.
I don’t have the slightest interest in reading it. @ 3:02 PM
Hunter Hogan: Employers: ah, too funny. Women: yes, sadly, I have experience dealing with that, too. Women did not want to date a 23-year-old who was married/divorced with two kids.
To be honest, this conversation feels more like an interrogation, and I’m trying to learn something from it, but really, I want to go crawl in a corner right now. @ 3:02 PM
Friend: B/c I’m going to take it on faith that your version of events is correct.
people misconstrued your intentions. @ 3:02 PM
Hunter Hogan: That is a good point @ 3:02 PM
What happened to me with the ARDC? What I really want. Why I post the documents.
Friend: they railroaded you.
and you got screwed. @ 3:03 PM
Hunter Hogan: Well, it’s worse than that. But, I’ve never said that because I never wanted revenge. I just wanted a proper process.
This is hurting A LOT
I don’t want revenge
I don’t want to prove my case
I want to unburden my mind
I have an emotional need to share this information with some people @ 3:04 PM
Friend: I can appreciate that. @ 3:04 PM
Hunter Hogan: People like Lauren, Roxanne, and a few other people @ 3:05 PM
Friend: I’m just saying, the appropriate place to share is with people who already like and love you.
And not a world that is already screwing you over. @ 3:05 PM
Hunter Hogan: I may have been very wrong with my actions, but I swear I did them all for a reason, and I swear that I tried. They have lost their faith in me. @ 3:05 PM
Friend: So you’re putting it out in public, hoping to reach people who aren’t inclined to hear it point to point?
I think many bloggers can appreciate that one. @ 3:06 PM
Hunter Hogan: These documents are for them; or more precisely, these documents are to fulfil my promise to them that I would always care about them and always try to make the right decision. Right now, the evidence they have is that I fucked them. I cannot live with myself without trying to show them that I tried.
Yes, I am making it public because an unexpected thing happened: I got a lot of help from people I didn’t know existed.
You have contacted me. Many people have contacted me.
Most of them are not people I knew in other places. They are people who found my story. @ 3:08 PM
Friend: I’m glad to hear that. @ 3:08 PM
Positive effects of talking about my life
Hunter Hogan: I would have died, not an exaggeration, last year if not for one specific person. Someone I’ve never met.
I don’t understand the dynamic, but it might be the only thing that has consistently been the right choice.
It’s empirical: I don’t know the cause. I don’t have a hypothesis.
There is a second issue. The volume of documents is more than I can handle: even if I were healthy.
I only make one claim: that I have tried to stick to my core ideals, which include the desire to be a good person and to treat people with respect and non-malfeasance. That is my only claim.
I do not claim that I succeeded in any of those things or that any of my actions were correct.
I need time to reflect. I need to learn more. I need to study more before I will make claims about the correctness of my actions. @ 3:12 PM
Friend: How do people who randomly reach out to you interpret it?
this is pure curiosity on my part @ 3:14 PM
Hunter Hogan: The pain I have caused to people I deeply love is FAR greater than my soul can handle. I despise myself. A massive part of me wants to die. But a conflicting voice says that I must first tell the people that I hurt why I did the things I did. I must try to lessen their pain. If I did not have that second voice, I am sure I would be dead by now. I don’t need a kick in the ass because I kick myself in the ass all day and every night.
The range of reactions is as broad as people who know me.
Some are very critical and attacking. Some are incredibly kind. I have not found a pattern. @ 3:15 PM
Friend: Have you considered just letting it all go? In Cairo, it makes it extremely easy to do just that. @ 3:17 PM
Hunter Hogan: Considered? I’ve actively tried.
I came to Cairo to fix the damage I created. Being here doesn’t make it easier.
Especially because I’ve been here 8 months and don’t speak/read Arabic the same as if I had been studying it. I’m very isolated here. @ 3:19 PM
Friend: Is there not much of an American expat community in Egypt these days?
when in that general area of the world, it’s usually cool, a fellow American! @ 3:20 PM
Hunter Hogan: expats are more critical than locals @ 3:20 PM
Friend: they only know what you choose to tell them
no reason you should. live in the present and plan for the future.
the past? eh. it happened.
it has no relevance to their lives unless you want it to. @ 3:22 PM
Frank discussion of my situation, including health
Hunter Hogan: I suspect that your understanding of my situation is a few months old. I used that technique, and it was useful–in the past. My current situation is quite different. I haven’t paid for lodging for many days. Locals have given me a room for free at two different places. I don’t have Rx or money for it. And other things. I’m mentally very ill. So ill that I have significant physical symptoms. I have serious dental problems that are independent. And I suspect that I have GI problems that are independent, too. I’m not sure what to say here. No one person can help me and I’m not asking for that. I’m asking for the knowledge of a magical institution that is equipped to help someone with my severity of illnesses. I sincerely wish I were exaggerating. I do not want this life. @ 3:29 PM
Friend: i figure at least i can cover dinner this evening
you can still get money out of paypal, right? @ 3:40 PM
Hunter Hogan: yes. thank you. @ 3:44 PM
thank you. I just got it. I don’t know what I need to do to heal. I thought I knew, and I tried to implement it, but I don’t feel that it is working. I don’t feel I have all of the answers. I know that my knowledge is small and I am trying to find the knowledge I need to change things. Thank you for helping–and especially for _wanting_ to help. That’s very important to my health.
Which I think you understand. @ 3:48 PM
Friend: i wonder if you have fibromyalgia and/or chronic fatigue
lots of pain, eighteen hour naps
sometimes triggered by lengthy stress @ 3:49 PM
Hunter Hogan: it’s possible. @ 3:49 PM
Right now, I am also dealing with a few other issues. Because I ran out of Effexor, I am suffering from Serotonin Withdrawal Syndrome. I am almost out of my benzos, so I ration them very carefully. Basically, I’ve stopped taking four Rx meds in less than one month, so my neurochemistry is all over the map. @ 3:51 PM
Friend: wow, yeah, that’s got to be a mess @ 3:51 PM
Hunter Hogan: Yeah, I think I experienced some Rx-withdrawal induced hypo-mania. I’m not sure because I’ve never experienced mania or hypo-mania, I’ve only read about it. But I certainly experienced some new, and unpleasant, mental states.
You see? One of my problems is that I don’t share enough with people.
I don’t want to sound like I am complaining, so I haven’t told anyone as much as I’ve told you in this conversation. @ 3:53 PM
Friend: eh, it’s my pleasure
two old friends from long ago doing some catch up, ne? @ 3:53 PM
Hunter Hogan: Does it change your understanding of my current situation? I believe it does. But I have an emotional block against complaining about all of my problems. And it means that people don’t know because they can’t see me suffering. The locals see my suffering, which is why I think they are more inclined to want to help.
Well, true, about catching up.
I don’t want to share this information because I want pity or for people to say “Hunter is right”. I want to share information because I want to lessen the damage I have done and to prevent future damage. That is why I am able to put effort into sharing the personal and damaging documents but I am nearly incapable of describing how dire my situation is. @ 3:57 PM
Friend: who do you have helping you out now? @ 3:57 PM
Hunter Hogan: A few people send me a few dollars each week. @ 3:57 PM
Friend: where are you getting lodging from? @ 3:58 PM
Hunter Hogan: I imposed myself on my Egyptian friend that owns this hotel. I do mean “imposed”. I’ve never done this before, and it makes me uncomfortable, but the alternative is to try to sleep in the street, and my Rx-chemistry is messed up right now.
Before last night, the hostel I paid for for 2 months let me stay for a few extra days for free @ 3:59 PM
Getting help from a church, mosque, or religious group
Friend: hmm, have you considered anything like seeing what kind of assistance say… the catholic church might provide? @ 4:01 PM
Hunter Hogan: It’s 4 pm now, and idk what I am doing tonight. This is a 2-star hotel and normally 200 EGP, and my friend wants me to pay only 50 EGP, but I could pay less at the last hostel and get breakfast. In any event, I can’t afford 50 EGP. And I’ve discovered that my mental illness is so much more severe than I understood, that lodging is almost a minor issue. I am struggling with figuring out reasons to eat. I have no desire to eat, worse than in December, and I know I will die if I don’t eat.
yes, I have considered religious organizations. @ 4:02 PM
Friend: confessional and helping those in need is really right up their alley @ 4:03 PM
Hunter Hogan: I’ve lived in a monastery before, and I have stayed at a church-run homeless shelter. I’ve also looked at the homeless situation in Cairo. My problem is not spiritual. They are not equipped to help me. I wish they were.
YES! It is. And I have read A LOT of theology and Christian philosophy because of it.
It has helped, but it has it’s limits. Still, I am a better person for it.
My discussions with the Bishop when I lived in the monastery profoundly affected me. @ 4:04 PM
Friend: i spent a summer up in a thai temple in the mountains myself
i’m pretty far from it now, but the biggest thing i got out of it is holding yourself sacred @ 4:05 PM
Hunter Hogan: that makes sense @ 4:05 PM
Friend: people break promises to themselves all the time, mistreat their mind and bodies
if you can’t keep vows to yourself and hold the body as a temple, what does it mean for the universe at large? @ 4:06 PM
Hunter Hogan: My intuition tells me that if I were able to find a place to live and study Daoism and it’s physical application (e.g., Aikido) that I would learn much
But communist China destroyed much of Daoism and Japan is even farther away @ 4:07 PM
Friend: communist china really didn’t destroy much of anything. it’s just no one reports anything to the government. @ 4:07 PM
Hunter Hogan: I thought I had the strength to start my “shar” or “dao” towards China, and that is what I intended to do. but it seems I was wrong. Maybe when the SWS stops, I will have the mental strength to go east. idk @ 4:08 PM
Friend: buddhists, falun gong, roman catholic church, all alive well and not-so-underground @ 4:08 PM
Hunter Hogan: You do know that I studied Chinese law in Beijing in 2007, right? This is a topic I know a little about. @ 4:09 PM
Friend: nod
i still can’t wrap my head around the chinese notion of discovery
such as it is
or how little their constitution bears on anything really @ 4:09 PM
Hunter Hogan: I was greatly disappointed by the lack of “religious” philosophy in China. The Cultural Revolution was horrible. Since then, however, and many things before then, were very good for China.
yes. it is VERY different than than the US @ 4:10 PM
it works, though. it’s a very different approach and an historical understanding of the Imperial system is necessary
I don’t think the Anglo system is superior/inferior. But I do think each system is suited to its culture
and history and language. language is destiny @ 4:12 PM
ok, things are getting crazy here now. I think I need to go.
many people talking to me in too many languages and I’m starting to get overloaded. @ 4:21 PM
Friend: alright
best of luck @ 4:21 PM
Hunter Hogan: as for chat, I never login, so if you want to chat, you have to ping me. @ 4:22 PM
Friend: okie doke @ 4:22 PM
Hunter Hogan: ty for everything. if you know of a Daoist temple that will take me, please let me know. My intuition tells me that wu wei is what I need. I also believe that if I were able to focus on the _now_ of my body, that I would be able to escape from the past of my mind. “escape” means “temporary reprieve”: I want to resolve things. I’m not running from myself or my actions. But I do need to have some peaceful moments in my mind if I am to deal with the stressful issues. @ 4:24 PM
